The bars only physically separate a person from his family, but family bonds go beyond bars. In this heartfelt podcast episode, join Ashley as she opens up about the profound changes that ensued when her husband became incarcerated, affecting not only her but also her four children. Ashley candidly shares her journey – from the initial discovery to navigating the complexities of discussing the situation with others, and how her children are coping. Gain insight into Ashley’s resilience and love, as she reveals the significance of finding support from family and the Prison Families Alliance. This is a poignant narrative of strength, perseverance, and the power of community in the face of life-altering challenges.
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Listen to the podcast here
Family Bonds Beyond Bars
A Special Visit
I’m here with Ashley, whose husband has been incarcerated for many years, and he has a few years left on his sentence. The question most people ask is, “How family stay together when a spouse or partner is incarcerated?” We’ll talk to Ashley about why she stays, how she copes, and maintains a healthy balance for her children.
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Welcome, Ashley.
Thank you for having me.
I’m glad you’re here. I’m happy you took the time to meet with me to share your story. With two million people in state and federal prisons on millions more in jails and on parole and probation, we know that you’re not alone and your story is going to resonate with thousands of people out there and give them hope. It’s not easy, but you’re making it work and your story is going to help many people. Let’s start with a little bit about you and your family. You have four children. How old are they now?
My youngest is 2 and my oldest is 16.
The two in between?
They have just turned 9 and 10.
That’s a lot and becoming a single mom. They’re babies. When you first went to visit your husband, we’ll talk about how you found out and everything. How did you tell the kids?
They knew something was going on. I was grocery shopping and the police showed up at the house. They knew something was going on, but they didn’t know he was arrested until my little niece accidentally told them. We had to have a little conversation and let them know what was going on. I was forced into it, but honestly in the end it was probably better because I wasn’t sure how to tell them.
That’s difficult. A lot of people struggle with that. I’ve interviewed people who didn’t tell their kids. They say daddy or mommy is working or that they’re doing something else, and then the kids find out later. The adult children that I’ve spoken to said that they knew something was going on and maybe they even knew, but they didn’t say anything because their parents or nobody in the family said anything. It’s to each own. Everybody has to do what’s right for them. When the police came, who was at home?
It was my husband and the kids.
The kids were there when the police came.
They were very respectful, and they asked him to come down. He knew. I was out shopping. He gave the kids a quick hug and said, “I’ll be right back.” We thought he would be right back.
How did you find out?
I knew he was going in for questioning. I had no idea what was going on. All of a sudden, his phone was tracked from one spot to another. I put the pieces together. I hadn’t heard from him his phone was off and then I kept checking online, the recent arrest finally popped up and hours later finally could call me.
I can’t imagine that phone call.
It was very unexpected. it’s like a dream now looking back. It didn’t seem real and still doesn’t sometimes.
It’s surreal. Now he’s incarcerated. Have you been able to visit him or when was the first time you had to visit him?
It was during COVID time. This is out of state. We still lived out there. We couldn’t visit at all. We finally went this past summer. Me and the kids, we had two visits and that’s it so far.
Tell me what the visit was like with the kids.
It was hard. Thankfully, since we were coming from another state, they had a special visit where it was us. It was two hours for two different days. One day was two hours. The second day was two hours. It was a lot of pressure because we couldn’t use the bathroom. We were trying to pre-plan and make sure everything, all the kids were okay before we got there. It was difficult to get an Uber to take us there. It was almost impossible to get one to take us back. We waited an hour and a half outside to get somebody to come get us.
We’d never been to that part of the state so we didn’t know where to stay and how far away it was. Learning the rules of what you can wear, do and where you can sit was a learning experience and not a lot of actual visiting because it was rigid and the baby was running around. Hopefully, after we get it down, it’ll be easier on everybody, but it was difficult.
It’s weird. It’s the new normal, but it is like a whole other world. You had the baby. Could you bring diapers?
I brought one diaper, wipes and a little cup of water.
Was there food there? Could you guys eat?
There wasn’t any food. We weren’t allowed to use the bathroom. We weren’t allowed to get up. Me and my oldest had to sit across from my husband with plexiglass in the middle and then the little ones could sit beside him and he could hold the baby. She was rambunctious and wanted to run around the whole time.
She’s got a lot of energy and a personality too. When you went to visit, how did you prepare the kids to visit?
It was pretty natural. With this whole process, I want things to not be shocking for them. It’s not normal no matter what, but we have done a lot of video visits leading up so they know what he’ll be wearing and the place that looks very sterile and the walls are all one color. That was a good segue to seeing him in person. They know about prisons being high security and all of that. They were okay. I don’t think anything was very shocking. When you go to the airport, they pat you down. It was very similar. It was a lot more smooth than I anticipated. I’m glad for that.
It could be traumatic. It reminds me of when I went to visit my brother and they started with TSA patting you down. It was after my first visit because I had to fly out there. I came through TSA and they stopped me and they made me put my arms out and patted me down. I started crying and they were looking at me like I’m crazy. It was traumatic because it wasn’t something that I was used to. We weren’t used to the TSA back then. We are more comfortable now. Did the kids have to go through a metal detector?
Yes. I think we had to take our shoes off or I did anyway. We all had to go through a metal detector. They patted me down, but not the kids. I know every facility’s different, but it was a lot less than I anticipated.
I’m glad they were more gentle with you and your family because you hear all kinds of things and like you said, each facility is different. you never know. I’m glad that even though you had a go, that it wasn’t traumatic. When you guys left, what was it like? Did you talk to the kids? Did they have questions? Did they want to go play or how did they ask?
We were staying at a hotel. They were excited to get to the pool again. They are very excited for that. They were okay with it. They didn’t ask any questions. I tried to naturally bring things up like, “How was that? Do you think it was what you expected or was it difficult?” They acted very natural. They were happy to see dad. They were happy to hold him and hug him. They got to sit right by him. Honestly, they were pretty okay. The travel was probably the most difficult. Anticipating everything. We didn’t have a car with us so we wanted to make sure we were dressed the right way and didn’t have to change. When it was finally past that point, we were a big relief was off our shoulders. We were good.
Finding Our Footing
It sounds good that you were able to prepare them, they understood, you spoke to them before and they got to see their dad on the video with everything being on Zoom, especially during the pandemic, I think that kids are more comfortable with Zoom or more. They’re not comfortable but used to it. I think that all the things that you did prepared them for how are they doing now. I’ve met them. I know Ashley and her family. The kids are wonderful. From your point of view, how are they doing?
I keep saying the first two years, which it’s been over two years, we’re just a cloud. I think they were the same. We were trying to find our footing. We moved back to our home state and we were going one day at a time. Now we’re finally starting to feel like, “This is our new normal”. The oldest is starting dance and I’m putting the boys in karate. We’re finally doing more than just surviving, barely. They’re okay right now. I make it a priority to not limit them on the phone if possible with my husband because they all need that individual time. There are many of us. It’s difficult, but when we have that good balance, they do well.
You speak to him almost every day.
The facility is locked down. We hear from him maybe once every other day when he’s going out for a shower. Normally we speak to him every day, multiple times a day when the kids are about to leave for school and when they come home. I try to give everybody some time them on the phone with him.
Is he involved in family decisions? How is he a part of the family or how do you keep him a part of the family?
That’s been maybe one of the biggest things for us because we’ve always been a very close family. It’s difficult trying to parent when you’re not in the same home. I keep him on the phone when the kids are having arguments. I don’t try to rush off. We try to do our parenting things together even though of I am the one that has to follow through. I’m the one that’s here. It’s very important to keep that normalcy of dad still having a say.
How do you support yourself? How do you take care of you?
Thankfully, when we moved back here, it was very quick and unexpected. I was able to jump back into the job I was working on prior to moving. We lived out in the state where he was incarcerated for only one year. I was able to come back. Right now, it’s working. We live with my family. In the future, I’m not sure. We lost our income in a day. It’s been difficult but it has been nice to have such a big support system. My family here has been helpful to us.
How did you tell your family? How did you tell people? Did you tell people? Who did you tell?
I told one sister and I said, “Pass it on.” I am trying to remember, I was very strict maybe about how, but what I would answer and what I wouldn’t boundaries. I told one sister and I wrote it out in a text. I said, “Tell everybody, but if they look it up online, don’t believe everything because news stories are not always accurate.” I went through, “Yes, I’m staying with him. No, I won’t talk about this.” Every time I came across a new person, whether it be family or friends, they always had the same question of, “How long is he staying? What did he do? Are you staying with him?” and not, “How are you not? How is he?” I don’t want to do that with every person I come in contact with. I’ve had to put up some serious boundaries over the last couple of years.
News stories are not always accurate. Share on XThat’s important. We talk about boundaries and talking to people when we’re raising awareness and that don’t have anybody that’s incarcerated or hasn’t been involved that everybody has been touched by it, but they don’t realize it. Few percent of the population has or had an incarcerated loved one or justice-impacted loved one. If you find out that somebody’s been incarcerated and you’re talking to their loved one, ask them how they’re doing and when was the last time they saw their loved one, things like that. What other questions would you think would be appropriate if you told somebody or they found out?
I would ask them if they’re taking care of themselves because that has been one of the biggest things. We were very dependent on each other here. Finding myself has been huge. Are you in a support group? Staying away from those big annoying questions that are like, “Here are all the most stressful things right now and let’s pick them apart.” I would ask if they have found a group of support if they’re sticking with the winners. For me, my husband, it’s been his faith and that’s kept him going.
He’s found like-minded people and they feed off each other. They exercise together and act like they’re a real person because they are, but a lot of people don’t view it that way. They are like life’s on pause for them, “We’ll see them maybe when I see them,” and when they get out, but they don’t understand that we’re still out here doing life with them in there. I would check on their mental health if they have support. Let them know you support them. That’s huge.
Support System: PFA Care Group
What kind of support have you found?
A couple of days after he was arrested, I went on a Google search and that’s how I found PFA. I started coming to Zoom as much as they had them multiple times a week. I had my little baby on there with me every week. I would lock the door and shut myself in there. That helped me a lot because I didn’t know anybody who was incarcerated before, at least not to my knowledge. I know a lot of people don’t like to talk about it. Maybe I have, but I didn’t have family or friends who had been through it or known anybody to my knowledge. That was huge for me. Moving back home, the PFA Cares group, now we meet in person and that’s been great for me and my kids.
That’s a Prison Families Alliance. That’s how Ashley and I met, starting the online Zoom, especially in the beginning. It’s wonderful that you found the support. I know that the facilitators and PFA or Prison Families Alliance have lived experience and provide much support and information. I’m glad that they were able to help you. We’ll talk about PFA Cares, but you are living in another state and what people don’t realize is the not only emotional impact it has but the financial. That was a big decision to move back here. It’s lucky for you that your parents had room for you and four of your kids.
It was very abrupt. The kids were halfway through a school year and thankfully my family is very supportive. My sister bought the tickets for me and my kids. She flew out there to pack us up and bring us back home. That was nice. My in-laws are who I lived with at the time helped me get packed. I had and still have a very strong support system. I’m very grateful for that.
You have a pretty big family and it’s wonderful that they support you. Not everybody has that. I’m grateful and happy for you that you do have that support. I think that also helps with the balance and the kids have love around them. They’ve got support and love around them. I’m wondering with the kids, has anything come up in school or do they ever talk about it? Has anybody ever asked them where their dad is or anything?
The boys are 9 and 10 now. They are pretty open to it. They’re pretty comfortable talking about it. I don’t think anybody has made fun of them, thankfully. I think one time they were learning about the states. My 9-year-old was learning about states and the state that my husband’s at got brought up and when he came home. He was upset and he was like, “It reminds me of dad. That makes me sad.” I had to remind him, “Thinking of your dad and being happy and proud, that’s your dad. You’re allowed to think about it.”
He got upset because that state was mentioned and he doesn’t like to apparently think about that state. It’s interesting. I sometimes have to redirect them, “That’s okay. That’s where he lives and we get to go visit him.” He’s, “That’s okay.” You have to remind him. It’s not a bad thing to talk about where he is in the state. it is interesting things that get that come up that are unexpected and throws me for a loop because he has never had a hard time talking about his dad or where he is at or anything like that. It’s interesting.
What I think is good is that he came to you and spoke to you. That’s the relationship you have with your kids that they can come to you. That’s healthy for them to be able to do that. As an adult and a parent, it’s sometimes you’re like, “How do I address this? What do I say or do?” those are things that you can get support from other people who have kids, how do they tell them and how do they talk to them?
I wanted to go back to PFA Cares, the meeting that’s here locally and that your kids have been a part of. They’ve been a part of other things. The kids get to do their own thing. The adults have a group, a speaker or a support group, and then the kids get to play. Just be kids and to be with other kids. We had an art teacher come in. They’ve been drawing and I think that’s been therapeutic. The first couple of drawings were a little darker. As they draw each week, have you found that they’re happier when they come and when they leave? I know they look forward to coming now. We have pizza, but I think they enjoy the drawing.
My family is very artistic. We’ve always enjoyed art, but being in this cloud that I’ve talked about for the last couple of years, we’ve lost some of that reminding ourselves to get back in touch with our creative side. The kids love it and they do well. It’s a very therapeutic thing even for adults. They’re loving it.
Keeping The Family Together
I thought it was interesting at one of the last meetings, there was a new boy who came in and they helped him. They’re also giving like us adults. That helps them too. I want to go back a little bit to learn a little bit more about you because we know you’re staying with your husband, which a lot of people might ask why. How did you guys meet?
We met in church randomly.
Was it love at first sight?
It wasn’t. I was not into his style at all. I think what happened is we were friends at church and I was like, “He’s nice.” He tried to flirt with me a couple of times and I shut him down immediately. I needed help one day breaking into my car. I posted it on Facebook and he was like, “I have a wire hanger. I can give it a try.”
Back then you could do that.
We ended up meeting and talking all night. We had many things in common and hit it off. We started dating very quickly after. That was probably in December and we ended up getting married in April. We got married very fast.
You’ve got a beautiful family. One of the things that we talk about is keeping the family together. It seems that’s something that you guys have managed to do. Why do you stay with him?
It’s separating the crime from the person. This is one thing that happened in his life and it’s not great, but it’s not him either. He’s always been very supportive of me. We balance each other. He’s my biggest cheerleader at work. Even though we started getting very dependent on each other emotionally. It’s us. It’s very natural. Our relationship is natural and comfortable.
I appreciate you answering that because that’s the question everybody gets. They don’t like to be asked that like, “Why do you stay with them?” That’s the first thing that people say. I know that a lot of spouses and partners out there don’t like that question and are like, “Why did she ask that?” I wanted people to know it from Ashley because she is willing to share that you can have a relationship. The relationship doesn’t end because somebody is incarcerated because you still love that person.
It’s who they are, not what they did. I wanted to bring that out because we have a lot of successful relationships. We have a lot of successful parenting that’s done from prison where it’s still the dad or mom and the kids still report to them. They still tell them what they’ve done well or if they need to be disciplined that the parent that’s incarcerated is still a part of that. You guys still make decisions together.
The relationship doesn't end because somebody is incarcerated. After all, you still love that person. It's who they are, not what they did. Share on XI wanted to bring that out for anybody who has the question, “Why did she stay with him?” It’s your spouse, love and partner. You can still have a relationship. You can’t be together all the time. I’ve heard also from other couples that their relationship has and their bond has been even stronger because it’s on a deeper level. Thank you for sharing that. We talked about a lot of things and I know that you talk to him almost every day and there’s lockdown, it’s a little bit more difficult and must get a little stressful too. When do you think you’ll be able to see him? Are you planning your next visit?
We don’t have anything in the books right now. I am hoping for this summer. That’s been the trickiest thing. It’s very expensive for me and for kids to travel across the country and then find a place to stay, hopefully get a rental car. It’s very expensive. that’s been probably our biggest challenge because we would love to go see him every weekend if we could.
I know it would be nice if he could be moved here. We spoke about that and that’s a pretty complex process. That would be great to have him here. He’s created a life for himself inside. Stick with the good ones. He’s taking care of himself. He’s doing everything he can because he knows that he has to stay healthy for you guys.
One thing we always remind each other is there is another side to this and that in itself is a huge blessing. Not everybody has that. When the other one’s having a hard time, “I need you to take care of yourself because there’s another side to this.” Mentally, physically, all of that, we want to be our best so we can continue our lives when he is back. I also don’t put my life on hold either. That’s been very important for both of us that we still keep up all the traditions we did with the kids and I still go and do things with friends. That’s kept both of us sane.
A lot of guys get jealous in there because they don’t know what’s going on. They don’t know the comings and goings. It messes with them mentally. Thankfully, with my husband, he encourages me, “You need to go out. You haven’t hung out with friends in a long time. That’s not healthy.” He pushes me and I appreciate that.
The Importance Of Communication
We talk about how Prison: The Hidden Sentence has a reentry workshop and we talk about how reentry starts at day one. Communication is important, to be each other’s cheerleaders, to support each other, to communicate, to be a part of the family, to set boundaries and to be real with each other. What can you afford? You would love to fly out there and see them. Think about it, people. Think if your spouse or partner wasn’t there and they were contributing to the family financially, and emotionally and then all of a sudden they’re not there physically for you? It’s a financial burden.
Like Ashley, she was lucky she could move back with her parents, which is not ideal. She wants to have her own place with her kids, which will happen. Luckily you’re safe and you have that. It’s expensive to fly. I had to do that with my brother and people didn’t realize that taking time off of work. You got to fly out there. You rent a car. You need food and then when you go visit you can buy food, which if you’re there for a couple of hours, it could be expensive especially if you have all your kids there and then you’re watching your kids. It’s a lot.
Even the communication is hard. The phone calls are very expensive. Trying to save for a visit, but then also trying to make sure we can talk every day. It’s very expensive.
I’m going to throw in there for a Prison Families Alliance, it’s a nonprofit. If anybody wants to make donations, they can go to PrisonFamiliesAlliance.org and look at the calendar but also make donations because we would love to be in a position to help people like Ashley so that they can go visit and do the phone calls. There are seven states now that have free phone calls and unfortunately, the state that he is in is not that one. Aside from phone, do they have tablets there?
They do have tablets. They don’t have enough for everybody. They’re not doing video visits or they haven’t since he’s been there. Normally they have tablets and when he does, it’s nice because he can call from there. We have similar to a similar texting option too, where I can send pictures and it takes a couple of days to go through. We don’t use it for texting because normally he’ll call before that. It is nice to send photos. I send all the time weekly updates of everything the kids have been doing and stuff I’ve been doing.
Do you write?
He does. He journals and then sends it to me. Sometimes I read it. Sometimes, I don’t. I got a little stack next to my bed, but I put them in little sleeves and in a binder.
You read it when it’s right.
Mostly it’s his comings and goings from the day. It’s this journal, which I like that seeing it. I don’t write. I just send texts and then we call.
What about the kids? Do they ever write, send pictures or anything?
They do sometimes. They can’t receive physical mail. That’s why I don’t write. You can write a letter and they’ll scan it in. He can see it on the tablet or kiosk. Sometimes I’ll have them write or draw a picture and I’ll take a photo and send it digitally so that way we don’t have to mail it in and wait for them to scan it in.
We’ll have to check with Pella Post to see what they say. There are some organizations out there like Pella Post that send pictures and they know all the rules. We’ll reach out to them and see if they have any suggestions. I’m thinking as we move forward with the art program at PFA Cares, we would be called to maybe scan some of those pictures and send them. We could have a picture of Daddy Day or something. It’s a horrible situation, but there’s so much that we can do.
That’s why we need to support each other and that’s why we talk about it. I appreciate you sharing so much because it shows that you’re not alone. People out there reading are going to know that they’re not alone. You shared some great information about how you shared with your kids, how you’re making it through day by day and how you got your job back. You’re also looking to some other opportunities that have come up with school possibly. There are a lot of things now that you’ve gotten through the cloud. It doesn’t go away because it’s a surreal world, where you can see a future for yourself and then for when your husband comes home.
I never planned on going back to school or doing anything different than what I do right now, but it’s healthy. It feels nice to take a step back and be like, “I feel like I could do this.” I thought I was good at one thing, which is hair. I don’t know if I’m going to do hair forever. I’m like, “That’s it for me.” I appreciate in a way this opportunity to step back and evaluate myself and think, “What am I good at? What would I want to do?” I still don’t know where I’ll go with it in what career path I’ll take. It is cool to step back and think, “There’s more. I can do more.”
You can. You’re so talented and a good role model for your kids, your attitude, and the way you keep going, support them and handle things are important too, to be a role model for your kids no matter how difficult it is that they’re the future. it is unfortunate that your husband will get to see them as they grow. They’re going to change each time you get to bring them there and he gets to see them. However, they’re going to be teenagers when he gets out and it’s going to be a whole new life. There’s always hope. We don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. We always need to have that hope. For families out there that are going through this, we’ll end with the question is what is the best advice that you can give somebody who is going through this?
I would say the one that you hear all the time is you’re not alone, even though it is very isolating, especially when you first are in it, because you do feel alone. There’s a huge stigma unfortunately still. Thankfully, I found the Prison Family Alliance Zoom meetings right away, but most people don’t know about it at all. On Facebook groups, I’m constantly referring people over. I’m like, “There are support groups. You’re not alone. there is life still will happen. When you’re in the beginning, it feels like this is the end. I don’t see any positive, but we’ve had a lot of positive experiences throughout this.” We’ll continue. We’ve both learned individually and the kids have. We’ve grown a lot as a couple, family and individuals. It’s not the end all. There is life and it will continue, and there’s support.
It's not the end because life will continue. Share on XDo you feel like you’ve become a more compassionate person?
I think I’ve always had that in me, but I didn’t know anything about what I’m going through right now. That’s opened my eyes to other people and what they’re going through. I didn’t know anyone who was with someone who was incarcerated or anyone who was incarcerated, but now I see that they’re normal people. I’m hopefully normal and I’m going through. It’s definitely made me feel more compassionate about people going through it.
Thank you for sharing and together we’re going to create a more compassionate world because we don’t know what other people have been through. I know for myself, if I hadn’t gone through this, I wouldn’t be as compassionate as I am now. I learned so much. All we can do is know that everybody’s going through something and we support each other. We don’t ask those questions. That’s the first thing people think of.
We don’t talk about that because the person who’s incarcerated is a person. We’re all human beings and we need to treat each other like that. I want to thank you again. I hope that anybody who’s reading has gotten something out of this that you know that you are not alone. I know we say that a lot because you do feel alone. When it happens, a lot of people go into numbing. They go into depression.
It’s okay to have bad days. It’s okay to be in your pajamas one day, but the next day you get up, get dressed and go out. You keep moving forward, even if it doesn’t feel right, do one little thing and pat yourself in the back for the little things. You did your makeup today. You did your hair today. You’re a guy that you worked out or I don’t know. One little thing that you did differently or that you made yourself do and you did. Celebrate the little things. Take care, until next time, thank you all.
Thank you.
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