Sexual offenses are often considered one of the most heinous crimes, especially those committed against children. But is there a path towards redemption for people incarcerated for these crimes? Julia Lazareck is on air to answer this question as she talks to a survivor of incarceration for sexual offenses. Jim shares his story with remarkable honesty, candor, and transparency as he discusses his decades-long journey from sex offenders to advocate for reform and rehabilitation. He talks about the need for healing for the perpetrators, the families, and the victims. Tune in and listen to this remarkable story of redemption.
—
Listen to the podcast here:
Sexual Offenses: Justice, Forgiveness, And Redemption
I’m with Jim, who’s on the board of the InterNational Prisoners Family Conference, Director of the Toledoans for Prison Awareness, a board member of CURE-SORT, which is the Citizens United for the Rehabilitation of Errants, Sex Offender Rational Treatment and on the membership committee for SASH, the Society for Advancement of Sexual Health. Jim is a husband, a father and a grandfather. He plays an active role in his family’s life.
Jim is a nine-year prison survivor and has been out of prison for 22 years. After returning from prison, he obtained his MSW as a social worker. He’s an advocate for criminal justice reform with a focus on people with sexual convictions and families. Jim, thank you so much for being here and all the work that you’re doing. At the beginning, let’s start with your conviction and then we’ll talk about all of the good work that you’re doing.
Children often find themselves repeating abusive behavior as adults or going the exact opposite way. Share on XI was arrested in 1989 and then convicted in 1991, sexually abusing the nine-year-old way over a period of for years. I did a shade over nine years in prison and was granted parole in May of 2000. I’ve been out ever since. I had two years on parole and things have been good since completing that.
It’s brave of you to come on here and to talk about it. It’s something that a lot of people don’t talk about but we need to because there’s not a good understanding about it. Before you were arrested, you were a social worker. Could you tell us about your work that you did before?
I initially worked in a child guidance clinic working with emotionally disturbed kids. Later after 1984, I switched and worked at a community mental health center where I was a geriatric specialist. I would hold down the elderly, trying to assess them for mental health issues, depression, loss of a spouse, a lot of dementia issues, helping families decide what they need to do to help their loved ones. Whatever I’ve done, there’s always been a family connection. That was always important to me. That career ended the day I was arrested for all the issues.
You did receive your license after you came home. How difficult was that?
It’s with a lot of encouragement from a therapist that I continue to work with. He said with my knowledge base, experience and willingness to be open about my conviction. I should try to get a social work license. Prior to my arrest, social workers weren’t licensed. That wasn’t an issue. In this world, professionals are licensed in much more rigorous ways. I talked to the social ward mates that I would have to pass a test, provide food of rehabilitation and responsibility for my behavior. I was able to pass the exam.
Sex stupid is worse than any other kind of stupid in our criminal justice system in many ways. Share on XMy therapist and two other people wrote letters of support. I was granted a restricted social work license. The restrictions were appropriate to my past, such as not working with minors and making sure that my supervisor was aware of my conviction and any other restrictions, which were not difficult things to do. I had two social work positions that for a short period of time. I came to the conclusion that I can be most helpful and effective by being a community advocate rather than working for an agency. Things have changed so much since I was a social worker. It was a tough adjustment but we were fortunate enough to live in HUD housing, where rent is based on income. I can afford to take that loss of income.
Let’s go back to before you were incarcerated. You were working with youth. Was that a time when you were perpetrating these apps?
After leaving the child guidance clinic, I crossed a line. Looking back, I realized that a process of being a perpetrator feel okay. I’ve given a lot of thought to years of decision-making and how I responded to events in my life that made it okay. It wasn’t until after I left child guidance that I crossed the line from being inappropriate to being criminal. It’s a surprisingly small line in some ways. That’s hard to articulate but it is. To me, I look upon that period of time when I was depressed, had a lot of suicidal ideations. I’m not saying that as an excuse for what I chose to do but it’s part of that reality also. After abusing, I often feel suicidal. It would come up a cycle, a vicious psych war.
I was feeling suicidal because of remorse and guilt and then repeating that. It was a very difficult cycle, until there was a very sharp moment when that changed for me. That was very shortly after learning that my first wife and I were going to be parents of twins. The first time after that, I was abusing. I felt what I described as a guy on my back. I suddenly realized how cruel I have been. If I wanted to be the kind of dad that I wanted to be, I couldn’t continue what I was doing. I stopped at that point. I didn’t take any responsibility for my behavior until thirteen months later, when I was arrested.
What would you say to somebody that was in your position or something that could have helped or changed you at that time?
I was living under some life assumptions that I see society demonstrate. For example, if you have had thoughts like, “You’re incurable. You can do nothing about it. This is how it’s going to be.” I was so afraid of telling anyone what I was thinking about and what I was doing. I never sought help. After my arrest, when I was able to talk with people, I learned how much I had deceived myself. My wife at the time said, “I’ll help you if you will help yourself.” Prior to that, I didn’t know there was any help for myself. A very good friend of our family said, “I know that you had an attraction to my seven-year-old. I know that nothing happened. I want you to know that I don’t see you as an evil person but as someone who has a sickness and can get better. We want that for you.” She was spot on.
When people can say those things, it made me think, “Maybe there is something I can do to get over this.” When you have the mindset of, “This is how life is. There’s nothing you can do. The only way I can stop this is to kill myself.” There’s not much motivation to change because there’s no hope that things can ever get better. It was the support and love of people in my life. Many of those people are still in my life. It was the size that shifted my thinking. It took a while. It’s not like, one day I feel hopeless and the next day everything is great. It doesn’t work quite that quickly. Over some time, I started to learn that I can make it. I can be different myself. I don’t have to continue to be an abuser and if I have feelings that are not acceptable, I don’t need to act on them. I can find ways to deal with them and build a better life for myself.
Over time, particularly while I was incarcerated, I found other people in the same situation. Some level of denial and acceptance. It started to make the difference for me. There’s one thing that happened when Bill Clinton was president, the whole thing with Monica Lewinsky came out. He said, “I did not have sex with that woman.” I knew exactly what he was talking about because I had in my deceptive mind changed the definition of sex to exclude what I was doing. I could say that. I heard that in Bill Clinton. That was the start of what pushed me to become a community advocate because I knew there were many other people who found ways to justify or rationalize what they had been doing. It’s was at that moment when he said that that I started the process of becoming a community advocate. I was still in prison.
Let’s talk about some of the organizations that are out there. You shared a lot of good information. There could be people out there that are reading that have those thoughts and might think that they can’t change but you changed. You are out here and represent that you can change. You’re a model to the people out there that are reading that have these thoughts can change and there are groups out there. I want to ask you something that I heard in one of our support meetings. Somebody said that if you’re talking to your therapist and you say that you have these thoughts or that you have perpetrated of another person that the therapist has to report that. Is that true?
It is. I have a lot of issues with that. I might say to a group in Germany that is handling this in a very different way that there’s much more proactive and therapeutic. We can talk about it if it’s appropriate. There is a lot of mandatory reporting, which is well-intended. There were probably times when it is helpful but it creates damage also. If I know that I’m seeing a therapist, “Last night, I molested Jenny Smith,” if I say that, I know that he’s going to report it because that’s the law. It encourages people to stay underground, so to speak. That can be very destructive because I’m not going to be encouraged to speak the health. The implicit message of that is, “Don’t tell.” That’s not the message that we need as people who have pedophile tendencies or any sexual deviance.
Sex offender registries, in general, promote a false sense of security. Share on XEven if they’re only thinking about it but there are groups out there that they can talk to. Let’s talk about some of those groups.
Around the year 2000, the German Government commissioned a study to try to figure out how many people in Germany had issues with pedophilia. They came up with bumping around 50,000 men and a smaller number of women. They started a program where they advertised on TV and radio or magazines. Things like, “If you are attracted to children in ways that you shouldn’t, we can help.” Some of those ads are on YouTube. I’ve seen some of them.
The point being, if you come and say, “I have these issues. I’m looking at child porn,” which is also a felon, if you volunteer, you’re not going to be prosecuted. What they say is, “Tell us what you’ve done.” You are then provided treatment paid for by the German Government. You’re not ostracized in the same ways. If a program like that had been available in the mid-1980s here in the United States, there’s a real good chance I would have taken advantage of that and said, “I’m having these thoughts. I’m doing these behaviors.”
It’s a lot cheaper and a lot asylee-wise more effective to keep people productive in the community and in their families to have this treatment than to ostracize people. Mandatory reporting has times when it has its benefits but it also encourages shadow behaviors. It keeps behaviors going until they come to the criminal justice system. We don’t encourage people to seek help before they become a felony. That’s a big difference. Can you imagine in Las Vegas or Toledo, Ohio on your local CBS News Station Ad, “If you are ever attracted to children, seek help and we can make a difference?”
I was wondering if you can maybe give us some insight into what goes through your mind. We want to humanize people. It’s what they did, not who they are. You’re still a human being and we talk about that a lot. Can you help us understand what goes through your mind or somebody that might be having those thoughts?
There are patterns. I made a comment about how we changed the definition of sex to fit what we’re doing so we can feel better about ourselves. It doesn’t work but we try. You get a feeling that life is so unfair. I’m not able to meet needs that are legitimate. I was abused as a child is often the case. That was not the case with me. I’m justifying what happened to me by repeating it. A lot of times people, whatever their experience as children, often find themselves repeating that behavior as adults or going the exact opposite way.
In some ways, it’s the same thing, whether you follow the path or do the opposite. I’ve learned in sexual function, that’s very much the case. I’ve also in research and thinking realized that people are on the autism spectrum disorder because of the way we have seen relationships, maybe more prone to being attracted to younger people because we feel a little bit more comfortable with them. That was part of the case with me. I wasn’t abused as a child but when I was four years old, I was very ill. At one point, I was not expected to survive.
During that time, I had leg paralysis and one of the therapies was massage. I believe that I very likely sexualized that. That is what I repeated, the way I conducted myself sexually. I’m almost certain that I sexualized that response and acted that out as an adult with the children that I perpetrated against. It doesn’t have to be physical, emotional or sexual abuse. The fact that I wasn’t expected to survive may have triggered some of the suicidal feelings that I’ve struggled with most of my life, even before I was a perpetrator. Somehow, I was supposed to die. I messed up and lived if that makes any sense.
We’re happy you’re still here and you are helping a lot of people. Being open, vulnerable and sharing here because there are lots of people out there that have questions. Saying that you can turn it around, what you’re talking about is changing your mind, doing things differently and finding support through these groups. Do you want to talk about some of the groups that are out there? We’ll put information out there about the study that the German Government did. That’s appropriate for people to know about and some of the things they’ve done. Here locally, with what you’re involved with, do you want to talk about one of those groups?
CURE-SORT is very much aligned in many ways and the goals with Prisoner’s Family. I am so proud to be part of it.
That’s the InterNational Prisoner’s Family Conference. Let’s talk about CURE-SORT first.
Our goal is education, support, providing information that people in prison or on the registry need to know. We don’t focus on legal things but we certainly are aware of them and advise people how to live with whatever circumstances we’re under if you’re on the registry or a family member. In CURE-SORT, there are quite a few people that I write to. I’m corresponding with probably around 25 to 30 different people in prisons all around the country with the goal of helping them plan for life after prison and what issues they have.
Some of them I still keep in touch with even after they’re out. That sometimes includes family members. In one of the support meetings that I was on with, Julia, there was a family whose son had been arrested. I reached out to them. There was a family in St. Louis, Missouri, that reached out to me. There’s ever growing number of people that I’m trying to advise to and support. If nothing else, let them know they’re not alone in their struggles.
I was wondering for somebody that might be having those thoughts that don’t or can’t talk to their therapist for whatever reasons, could they contact CURE-SORT to get support on what they can do to help themselves so that they can change?
Yes, they could. I’m trying to remember the address. There’s another agency I’m not involved with called Stop It Now!. They have a hotline for this purpose.
What about SASH?
I’ve been a member of SASH since 2010. I go back always. This is a very clinically organization to deal with any type of sexual dysfunction. It’s not focused primarily on sex, sexual offending or convictions. It includes the gamut if you’re having multiple affairs or a foreign addict, for example. These are therapists who are trained specifically in sexual areas to help individuals and their families cope with the issues involved.
Quite a few members of SASH have had a history of addictions on themselves. We’re quite open there. I’m part of it. We are open to sharing our struggles. Interestingly, I listened to a podcast put out by SASH called Conversations from the Couch, where a group of faith leaders who had issues themselves either directly or one case spouse talked about how church leaders can make a difference in their communities in handling sexual issues that come up either for themselves or for other members of their faith. It’s fascinating and wonderful to be part of all these things and seeing that we can all make a difference.
One of the things I wanted to bring out is you did talk about people that are addicted to porn. A lot of stories that I hear are from people that are online. They think that they’re online and if there are underage people there that they’re watching, they can be arrested, even watching porn on your computer and even communicating. Many people are incarcerated for watching and participating in stuff online. That’s something to be aware of. SASH can help with that if somebody is using their computer.
You cross the line when you communicate because you never know who you’re communicating with. There are lots of things out there. I have mixed feelings about that because these things tend to get the low-hanging fruit. Not be people who are making a difference. There’s a lot of people incarcerated on child porn. To me, the sentence on child porn is outrageously high. There are people doing more times in jail, more than I did. I had a physical victim.
I’ve spoken to several families. It’s young men. I’m not making excuses for anybody. I’m saying that people need to be aware, especially when they have teenagers that might be in that experimental phase and communicate online. We had several families, specifically sons that are incarcerated for 10, 20 years because they did something stupid online. It’s awareness for people out there. Not everybody that is convicted has done something horrible or is a horrible person. There is retribution and healing.
Use your own senses, your own judgment. If someone feels not right to you, look at that judgment and go from there. Share on XThe sex tape is worse than any other stupid criminal justice system in many ways.
Not just the person but on the family and the recovery. Before we talk about the other groups, let’s talk about the sex registry that you need to be registered. What is that like?
I’m glad I’m off the registry. I graduated off of that. The last time I looked, there were around 950,000 people nationwide on sex offender registries. If you take that out to look at family members or friends who are affected, it’s in 2 to 3 million ranges. There’s no way to have a definite number on that. Registries, in general, promote a false sense of security.
In one of the support meetings that I was at, there’s one gentleman who has a girlfriend who knows about him being on the registry. They went to a 4th of July party with some other people. Apparently, the next day someone looked up the guy. Texted his girlfriend saying, “Did you know that he’s on the registry?” Adding that she’s welcome to come to their house because they’re friends but he is not welcome. She responded, “If he can’t go, I won’t go.”
Registries can only tell us when somebody was convicted of. It doesn’t tell us particularly what plea bargains, so prevalent, what that actually person did. It doesn’t relate to guilt or innocence. If you have a conviction and you’re on the registry, that’s it. It also doesn’t tell us anything about the response or responsibility of the person on the registry. Had this person had helped or not? Had he change or not? There is no way registries could do that. That’s too complex on what’s going on in somebody’s life. You have a serious depressive episode and you do something stupid, which does happen. The registry isn’t going to say, “All of a sudden, someone who is more at risk.” We, as individuals, have to monitor that ourselves and registry can’t do that. Also, it doesn’t mean that a felon is not on the registry, that they haven’t committed a criminal offense.
If you want to look up the registry, that’s your job. Use your senses and judgment. If someone feels not right to you, look at that judgment and go from there. There are some people because of their histories, who feel sex offense is worse than murder. We have to accept people where they’re at. We asked that of others. We have to offer that to people. Also, we have to provide and accept that. I totally understand. You talked about me being a grandfather for one of the women. One wife and one girlfriend know my story. I told her when I first met her, “If you have any questions that you need to ask, feel free to ask me. I’m fine with that.” She didn’t need to ask any. Every once in a while, something will come up and we’ll talk about it but it’s not a big issue either.
For anybody reading that has been sexually abused or had a family member, we are not condoning the actions at all but we want to bring light to the people that are involved. With the registry, we have several families whose sons are on there. They were nineteen and had a relationship with a 17-year-old or a 16-year-old. They’re kids. They’re on the registry for however many years. There are different situations.
Not everybody that’s on the registry has done a heinous crime. What Jim is saying about judgment is trust your gut because not everybody that’s on the registry has perpetrated somebody. It could be something simple or heinous. Make sure that you don’t judge by seeing that they’re on the registry. We’re not condoning any of this behavior. We’re showing that there is change. I thank Jim so much for being vulnerable and sharing because a lot of times, we don’t have anybody to talk to. We don’t understand. Jim is out there helping people and helping people understand. Let’s talk about the Toledoans for Prisoners Awareness.
The mantra of this group is why we should care about what happens in our prisons? We’re primarily focused on Northwest Ohio, where Toledoans has a maximum-security prison. What I tell people is, “It’s not what happened in our prisons. There are people who worked in our prisons, corrections officers.” One of my wife’s sons is a corrections officer. People who worked in corrections are exposed to a very toxic environment that I sometimes call prison paranoia. We need to be mindful. They bring these issues home with them. It does make a difference in our communities.
There are more instances of corrections staff with domestic violence, for example. That affects our community. The people who are getting out of prison as someone who is around 95% or something like that are getting out, we should care about what happened there because when they get out, we want them to have a better attitude, a better lifestyle, make different choices. Different prison bar is providing those opportunities and encouraging that. It is important what goes on in our prisons and that’s our focus. We’re educational. We don’t take a stand on one thing or the other. We want people to become more aware. Interestingly, years ago, we showed a film on prison hospice, which had been shown at the conference. One woman made a comment, “I never thought about the fact that people in prison get older.”
We give people life in prison. It’s almost like she was saying, “They’re exactly the same at 25 as they are at 60.” It’s never the case. People change physically and emotionally. We cannot afford as a society to forget about somebody, even if they are doing the life sentence. When we exclude the possibility of anyone changing, it reforms all of us. That’s why it’s important.
That sounds like you’re doing a good job there. Working locally too, has a large impact. I want to talk about the InterNational Prisoner’s Family Conference because that’s where we met years ago. I’ve learned so much from you. It’s been such a pleasure knowing you and learning from you. Do you want to talk a little bit about the conference and your role in the conference?
I talk right to them about sexual issues but also on a broader level, about what we call closing the empathy gap. A number of years ago, we did a role-play scenario where we asked people who had a loved one in prison to role-play being a corrections officer having to enforce rules that were not popular. To me, it was a failure. It showed we are polarized. It’s us versus them. Ever since that, I’ve tried to focus increasingly on making that a smaller gap.
When it’s us versus them, we tend to see corrections people as the enemy. We want as prison survivors to be seen as people in our light, who have changed, that change whatever we are. We need to give that same light to people who work at prisons. They’re also human beings with feelings and different motivations for being in corrections. It’s humanizing the entire criminal justice system and trying to get away from polarizing.
It’s important to close the empathy gap and to work together. The us and them don’t work. It’s perpetrated throughout the United States. If there is some way through the conference and our work, we can bring people together, law enforcement, corrections, incarcerated people and families to a better understanding and support of each other. That’s going to help people during their incarceration when they come home. Everything that you’ve said is helpful.
One thing that I’m working on for the 2021 conference for the advocacy and action coalition is a treatment calendar, which I’ve gone a little bit outside the box of what I was asked to do. The focus is to create more programming in our prisons that would help people learn skills that they need for reentering.
What is a treatment calendar?
The way it’s working out is, let’s say Monday is Financial Literacy Day. Part of the Monday is programming. People learn about budgeting or stay off the machine credit but also even in the short-term, dealing with the prison of the economy. Avoiding traps such as gambling or other things where you borrow money. Tuesday is Conflict Resolution Day, where people discuss when you have a disagreement with someone, how do you approach that, what are the different ways and how can we learn from things that we’ve done in the past to do something differently? Those are the things that I’m working on that will be part of the conference this October 2021.
Is it for the attendees so that they can attend different workshops to help them help their loved ones?
These would be programs done within the prisons but I’m hoping the conference attendees will benefit from the same to different prisons all over the country. “Are you doing things like this? Why or why not?” Put some pressure on our criminal justice system to do a wonderful therapy for people to reenter. I would venture a lot of people who are in prison have difficulty with dealing with conflict resolution, for example. Why not have programs where once a week, we deal with that? Look at the issues. How to better resolve things? How to learn from our past? The same with the financial that I talked about and there’ll be other things too. That’s still a work in process but it’s an important part of preparing individuals to return to society with a different attitude and different mindset.
With everything that you’ve said and shared, what advice or suggestions do you have for the families?
I so often hear families feel shame about having someone who’s in prison. My sister was very much that way. When my dad died while I was in prison, she delayed announcing his death so that at the funeral, people wouldn’t ask, “Where’s Jim?” That’s a burden she didn’t need to carry. Family is not responsible for what other people do in our family. Often, we assume that responsibility. We say, “If I had done this or that.” The what ifs can drive us crazy. We have to try to get away from that.
I learned going back to when I was arrested and my wife at the time said, “I’ll help you if you help yourself,” and our friend talked about her seven-year-old and me, in various other conversations, I had been keeping secrets, staying isolated to not harm us as family members. It doesn’t help our loved ones who are in prison and who are incarcerated. We need to be brave, bold and not assume that everyone is going to judge us harshly. That doesn’t mean that everyone in your circle of friends needs to know every detail. We have to look at our social circle, our family circle and be sensitive to who can tolerate that.
Not everyone needs to know but if nobody knows, you do damage to ourselves as individuals. If there’s no one in our family or in our circle that we can talk to, find others. Prison family is doing a fabulous job of doing that. I suspect that we’re not looking nearly enough at the people that we know day-to-day. We assume that they would judge us harshly. A lot of the time, that’s not the case. What I’ve learned from being open is people hate what I did but it didn’t change how they feel about me. There are lots of opportunities for us to test that out. You can’t just go out and say, “My brother is in prison because he molested a girl.” We can talk about the stress that we may be under. Approach it one step at a time, see how people respond. That’s a gentler, easier way to bring up the conversation.
What about if somebody has thoughts that their loved one might be doing something? How should they approach their loved ones?
There are times in life that we have to have an uncomfortable conversation. It’s perfectly okay. Not in public but in a very private way. “We’ve been concerned about the changes in you. You’re not as open with us. You spend a lot of time in your room. We don’t know what’s going on. You’re our brother, son, daughter, spouse. We want to help and we want you to be fair, honest with us.” Sometimes that will open the doors. A lot of times, it will open the door later. There may be things going on that they’re not ready to share. It may take several conversations like that.
If you have a specific concern which is looking at child porn, for example, you can directly ask them. Interestingly, my therapist suggested that we look at my son’s computer because he thought there were some indications of that. There were not, which we’re grateful for but we looked. I’m sure my son would have been very unhappy with us if we had found them but if we had, we would have had to have that uncomfortable conversation.
I wish I had uncomfortable conversations many years before I did because I would have not been in the situation that I’m in. On the other hand, I also looked at it as a gift because of what I’ve done and how I’ve changed. I get to know people like Julia and other people that they can found, also the people that I talked to and support. It’s a better life but I wish that I hadn’t damaged so many people in the processes of this but it’s a gift because I can give back.
We cannot afford as a society to forget about somebody, even if they are doing a life sentence. Share on XYou take what you learn and you help others. Thank you for your time, for the information, for the help you’ve provided, for being so vulnerable and honest. Letting us in is like drawing the curtains on something that we don’t know a lot about. Thank you so much for sharing that. I know it’s going to help a lot of people. Thank you, Jim.
Thank you.
—
I want to tell you about the Prison: The Hidden Sentence book. There are so many things that you need to know when a loved one is taking into the prison system that nobody tells you. This book will provide valuable information to help you as you go through the stages of the prison system with your loved one. I also share stories. You know that you’re not alone as you’re going through this. Prison The Hidden Sentence book can be purchase on Amazon.
Important Links:
- InterNational Prisoners Family Conference
- Toledoans for Prison Awareness
- CURE-SORT
- SASH
- Stop It Now!
- Prison: The Hidden Sentence
- https://PrisonFamiliesAlliance.org
- https://prisonthehiddensentence.com
- https://www.BBC.com/news/av/magazine-33484874
About Jim
Jim is a prison survivor and an advocate for criminal justice reform. He is passionate about the need for advocacy and feels that mass incarceration is dehumanizing for the entire family. It creates shame and secrecy. He regards individuals on the Sex Offender Registry as incarcerated and talks about the effects of this on families.
He is associated with a group that pushes and advocates for change while at the same time providing support for those impacted by these policies and also to support ourselves. We have a long road ahead to create the impetus for change in our attitudes. The U.S. has 5% of the world’s population but 25% of those incarcerated and that does not count people impacted by the Registry. Something has to change and the International Prisoner Family Conference has the courage to be in the forefront. Jim has been affiliated with the International Prisoner Family Conference for over 8 years.
In addition, he’s on the Board of Directors which provides more opportunities for service. Some of the most compassionate, loyal, and persistent people have become an important part of his prisoner family experience. One of his joys has been to share with people, such as Carol Howes, who was the Warden of the prison where he served time. She was not what we perceive as the typical warden and this has helped him to avoid making judgements by role. Jim’s mantra is that we need to view people as they are at the current time
Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share!
Join the Prison: The Hidden Sentence Community today:
Leave a Reply